More Citigroup-inspired Finance Illiteracy

I don’t know what it is about Citigroup that inspires journalists at reputable media outlets to spout unadulerated garbage, but there seems to be a lot of it going around.

Yesterday’s prize went to The Washington Post and David Cho. That prompted a long-time reader to draw my attention to a December 2009 story in The Nation by Zach Carter. And at the heart of this story is the big fat plum that makes them the hands-down winners of today’s prize.

In October and November 2008, Citigroup received more than $45 billion in TARP money, in two installments, in exchange for preferred shares. That package was later restructured. $20 billion was converted into a loan, and $25 billion was converted into common stock.

Then, in December 2009, Citigroup proposed to repay the $20 billion loan by issuing new equity. Their primary motivation was evidently to wriggle out from under the restrictions that an unpaid TARP loan would subject them to, restrictions on executive compensation and bonuses. (Having duly wriggled out, Citigroup went on to announce $25 billion in bonuses.)

Zach Carter’s piece is an outspoken criticism of this repayment proposal. His objections, though, are not to Citigroup’s profligate motivation for the repayment. It’s the “sloppy structuring of Citi’s repayment plan” that “is going to cost the government literally billions of dollars” which has him all worked up.

Taxpayers are getting a raw deal in Citigroup’s plan to repay its bailout funds, but you wouldn’t know it from reading the news. …
[...]
On Monday, Citi said that in order to have enough money to pay off the government’s $20 billion loan, it was going to raise about $20 billion by issuing more shares of common stock. The company’s financial health has improved; it can raise money from the private sector and pay back the taxpayers. Sounds great, right? Wrong.

Taxpayers are getting screwed. Citi’s stock market value at the end of Friday was roughly $90 billion. If Citi issues another $20 billion in common stock, the company does not magically become more valuable. It’s still got the same credit card and mortgage problems it had last week, and the same shaky profit prospects. Since $20 billion is about 22 percent of $90 billion, everybody who owns a stake in Citi’s common stock, including the taxpayers, will see the value of their investment decline in value (sic) by about 22 percent.

How big a deal is this? Well, 22 percent of the government’s $30.7 billion stake is $6.8 billion. That means Citi’s plan to “repay” the government actually ends up costing taxpayers money. Not only will our $5.7 billion profit be wiped out, but the value of our common stock investment will actually drop below what we first paid for it in February.

Of course, Carter’s dire prediction of a 22% decline in the share price never came to pass. That’s because it was pure unadulterated hogwash.

(And he doesn’t seem to realize that, at the time he wrote his article, any decline that was warranted by news of this transaction wouldn’t still be waiting to occur. It would have occurred right when the transaction was announced, not when it was later consummated, but that’s a text for another day. This is, though, one of the most basic facts about how the market works, and someone who doesn’t understand something that basic really shouldn’t be allowed to write about financial markets. Not in a reputable media outlet. Or, at least, not without a finance-knowledgeable editor looking closely over his shoulder, and schooling him along the way. I do, of course, happen to know a very well-qualified person, who would excel at such a job, even if I say so myself, but this post is no place for job applications.)

Returning to the main theme, Zach Carter is invoking one of the great urban legends of corporate finance, the “dilution effect of stock sales”. The notion is that any time you issue new stock you are diluting stockholder wealth — because you’ve increased the number of shares but the company does not magically become more valuable, it still has the same assets, opportunities and problems it had before — and it’s just plain wrong. Moreover, the math that Carter produces — if new equity brings in money equal to 22% of the previous equity value, then the value of the previous equity must decline by 22% — would make anyone acquainted with finance laugh out loud.

Let’s take the math first. What actually happens when a company issues new equity is:

  • Whether the value of old equity will decline depends entirely on what price the new shares are sold at.
  • There’s a decline if, and only if, the new shares are sold below the current market price.
  • If they’re sold at current market value, there’s no decline. (Which is only as it should be. Selling something at fair market value should not destroy wealth.)
  • In a minute, I’ll lay out a simple example to demonstrate this point. But, first, I want to stress that any claim that the value of the old equity will decline by x% regardless of what price the new shares are sold at is laughable.

    Assume that a company has 22.5 billion shares outstanding, and a share price of $4 (for an aggregate equity value of $90 billion). (Those were roughly Citigroup’s numbers when they announced the repayment plan in December 2009.) They now plan to issue new shares worth $20 billion, at the current stock price of $4. This means that they would be issuing 5 billion new shares.

    The first thing that happens as a result of the issue is that the company’s assets go up. (If the money is then used to repay debt, both assets and liabilities will go down in step two, but we’ll come back to that later.) That’s where Carter’s simple-minded argument breaks down. It’s not true that the firm has the same assets it had last week. $20 billion in cash just came into the firm; that’s a new asset, in anyone’s book. So the new issue doesn’t just increase the number of shares outstanding, it also increases the asset base. And when the new shares are sold at the current market price, the number of shares and the asset base increase in the same proportion.

    Before the issue, we had 22.5 billion shares worth $90 billion. The number of shares goes up to 27.5 billion (a 22% increase). Simultaneously, because the assets went up by $20 billion, the aggregate value of the shares goes up from $90 billion to $110 billion (once again a 22% increase). We end up with 27.5 billion shares worth a total of $110 billion, for an unchanged stock price price of $4.

    So, dear Zack, even though the firm raised $20 billion in new equity, and $20 billion is 22% of $90 billion, everybody who owns a stake in Citi’s common stock didn’t see the value of their investment decline by 22%.

    So it’s not issuing equity per se that makes the wealth of old stockholders decline.

    There will be a decline, though, if the new shares are sold at a discount from the market price. Suppose the new shares are sold at $3.33 instead of $4. Now, to raise $20 billion, the company will have to sell 6 billion shares. We end up with 28.5 billion shares worth an aggregate of $110 billion, and the stock price ends up at $3.86 (a decline of 3.5%).

    Nor is the potential decline limited to Zach Carter’s magic number of 22%. If you sell the new shares for $1 each, you end up selling 20 billion shares. The stock price falls to 110/42.5, which is $2.59, a decline of 35%.

    Let me now come back and dot some i’s. My simple example ignores what is supposed to happen in step 2: that the $20 billion that was raised will be used to repay an outstanding loan. There’s really no need to construct a second, more complicated example to address this, though.

    First of all, Carter’s argument that Citigroup’s repayment plan will “cost the government literally billions of dollars” has nothing to do with the use of the funds. His point is that it’s the new equity issue that will dilute stock value. When you use $20 billion in cash to pay off a $20 billion loan, that should be a value-neutral transaction.*

    Secondly, if you focus just on the repayment (since we’ve already dealt with the new issue), here’s what happens. Before repayment of the loan, stockholders in effect own a smaller slice of the assets, because the loan represents a prior claim on part of the cashflows from the assets. Repaying the loan reduces the firm’s asset base (by the $20 billion in cash used for the repayment), but now the stockholders own a larger slice of that reduced asset base. These two effects basically cancel each other out.

    Or putting it differently, the company’s assets after the new issue and repayment are exactly the same as they were before the joint transaction. So that part of Carter’s argument is accurate: “the company does not magically become more valuable, it still has the same assets, opportunities and problems it had before”. What he misses is that, because the debt was extinguished, in effect stockholders now own a larger slice of that same asset base. That’s what offsets the increased number of shares.

    * This assumes, of course, that $20 billion is not just the amount borrowed but the current market value of the debt. If the debt is actually worth less (perhaps because the government paid more for the debt than it was worth) or more (perhaps because of an improvement in Citigroup’s prospects), that’s a separate issue.

    Comments

    1. Zach Carter says:

      Hi Sarabeth,

      Thanks for taking the time to respond to my December 2009 Citi story for The Nation. I think we generally agree on the basic financial concepts involved here—we only differ on the actual facts pertaining to the Citi offering, which I believe lend strength to my argument that the deal was not good for taxpayers.

      The main objection I have to your post is this assertion: “Carter’s dire prediction of a 22% decline in the share price never came to pass. That’s because it was pure unadulterated hogwash. ”

      Actually, Citi shares did suffer a drastic decline as a result of the offering.

      Citi shares closed at $3.95 on Friday, December 11. On Sunday, December 13, reports started coming in that Citi was going to raise capital to pay back TARP. Over the next few days, new information was disclosed about the nature of the offering—common or preferred, etc.—and the stock price fell steadily as the news came out. After market close on Wednesday, December 16, the company announced that it had priced the offering at $3.15 per share, and the trading price of the company’s stock dropped to $3.20 by market-close on Thursday.

      So depending on whether you want to use the offering price or the Thursday closing price, that’s a decline of either 20.2% or 18.9% from the value before the offering was announced. There are some other technical aspects involved here—Citi raised $17 billion in common, and another $3.5 billion in “tangible equity units” – but I think reasonable people can agree that my analysis was basically right.

      I also think we can agree that Citi shares did take an absolute beating in mid-December 2009, that they took that beating because of the stock offering, and that the stock offering proved significantly dilutive to shareholders, including taxpayers. As a result, I think we can agree that allowing the offering to go through was not an effective way to manage the taxpayers’ investment in Citi.

      Zach Carter

    2. sarabeth says:

      Of all the different strategies you might have chosen in responding to my post, trying to put words in my mouth this way is probably the most misguided:

      I think we generally agree on the basic financial concepts involved here

      No, we don’t. In fact, the whole point of my post is that we totally disagree on the basic financial concepts involved here.

      I would have thought that this was perfectly clear from my post. The whole post, pretty much, is a detailed explanation of why you are wrong about the basic financial concepts.

      You are clearly invoking the classic form of that great urban legend of corporate finance, the “dilution effect of stock sales”. You say, in so many words, that because the assets of the firm stay the same but equity increases by 22%, therefore the stock price must fall by 22%. That’s the argument at the heart of your article.

      And the whole point of my post was to explain, in detail, why this is conceptually wrong.

      So no, we certainly don’t agree on the basic financial concepts involved here.

      Now to:

      we only differ on the actual facts pertaining to the Citi offering

      One, in my post I never referred to these actual facts, so there was really no question of my disagreeing with you on the facts. Two, how can there be any disagreement about the facts? The facts are what they are.

      However, I’m afraid we do disagree, once again, on what the relevant set of facts is. You invoked this set of facts:

      Citi shares closed at $3.95 on Friday, December 11. On Sunday, December 13, reports started coming in that Citi was going to raise capital to pay back TARP. Over the next few days, new information was disclosed about the nature of the offering—common or preferred, etc.—and the stock price fell steadily as the news came out. After market close on Wednesday, December 16, the company announced that it had priced the offering at $3.15 per share, and the trading price of the company’s stock dropped to $3.20 by market-close on Thursday.

      So depending on whether you want to use the offering price or the Thursday closing price, that’s a decline of either 20.2% or 18.9% from the value before the offering was announced.

      One, I cannot imagine how you justify the statement “depending on whether you want to use the offering price or the Thursday closing price”. The offer price might bring you closer to your magic number of 22%, but your argument pertained only to the market price of Citigroup’s stock, not what offer price the company might set for the new shares. So, please let’s agree that only the market price of Citigroup’s stock is relevant.

      Two, I can see why you were tempted to use the closing price on Thursday, December 17, since it is the lowest closing price for Citigroup that week. (But even this cherry-picked closing price only produces a decline of 18.9%, which is not 22%.) However, your argument that the price would drop 22% has nothing to do with the offer price. Your argument is that when the company announces they are issuing $20 billion in new equity to pay off their TARP loan, the stock price must drop 22%, without reference to the offer price.

      A complete, detailed announcement about the new issue was made on Monday, December 14. This announcement contained all relevant details, except for the offer price, which is not supposed to be relevant under your argument. (It’s relevant under mine, but not under yours.)

      So according to your argument, the stock price should have fallen 22% not by Thursday, December 17, but by Tuesday, December 15. And we should see this fall reflected in the opening price. Any further decline that day would come from Tuesday’s news, not Monday’s announcement. The opening price on Tuesday, December 15 was $3.67. That’s barely a 7% decline from the Friday closing price of $3.95.

      So the relevant facts are that when the company announced it was going to issue new shares worth $20 billion to increase its equity by 22%, the stock price dropped only by 7% in reaction to that news, and not 22%. Clearly, the prediction from your “dilution effect of stock sales” argument was not borne out.

      (It is a well-documented fact that, on average, announcements of new equity issues seem to cause a stock price decline. There are different theories for why this might happen — including the idea that any time a company chooses to issue stock, it is signaling to the market that its stock is overvalued — but no clear consensus. In short, we still don’t understand why this happens. We do however, understand, very clearly that it does not happen because of the classic same-assets-and-earnings-but-more-shares “dilution effect of stock sales” argument. We do understand that that argument is pure unadulterated hogwash. And that is the only issue I was addressing in my post.)

    3. Zach Carter says:

      I’ve been a financial reporter for several years, and I am well aware that there are many reasons why capital offerings do not have to be dilutive. The point of my response was to say that I agree with your basic theoretical point, but that my story for The Nation was not intended to be a theoretical article.

      The Nation was not an effort to explain how all capital offerings work, or the nature of dilution—it was an attempt to explain that the Citi offering in particular was going to be dilutive, and that allowing the offering to go through was undermining the Treasury Department’s claims about how successful and profitable the Citi bailout had been.

      The basic thrust of your critique is that the offering wouldn’t necessarily be dilutive if Citi could find investors willing to pay a relatively high price for the new shares. The Nation story argued that they wouldn’t be able to find such investors, since there was no reason for investors to pay a relatively high price, and that the company’s existing shareholders, including taxpayers, would be diluted. I included a set of simple calculations is to assign an estimate on how bad the deal would prove, in a manner that readers (most of whom are not former finance professors) can relate to.

      My predictions proved pretty close to what actually came about, if you accept Thursday’s close as the relevant measuring point. I chose Thursday because it’s the first closing price after the market learned that the deal would in fact go through. It was not clear during the week of this stock sale that Citi was actually going to be able to complete the offering, so it was not clear what effect it would have on the stock. This was the largest single capital offering in corporate history, and there were many reports that the company was having trouble finding buyers. There was also the question of whether or not the Treasury would be dumping additional Citi shares into the market, something Treasury ultimately decided to postpone. There are, of course, many reasons why stocks can behave certain ways, but I’m hard-pressed to see what explanation other than the offering can account for Citi’s 18.9% decline over the course of a period in which the KBW Bank Index slipped just 4.3%.

    4. sarabeth says:

      Oh, good grief!

      Your first pass defense was the laughable argument that you and I generally agree on the basic financial concepts involved here.

      And now, from that you’ve moved on to…what exactly?

      Here, once again, is what you wrote:

      Taxpayers are getting screwed. Citi’s stock market value at the end of Friday was roughly $90 billion. If Citi issues another $20 billion in common stock, the company does not magically become more valuable. It’s still got the same credit card and mortgage problems it had last week, and the same shaky profit prospects. Since $20 billion is about 22 percent of $90 billion, everybody who owns a stake in Citi’s common stock, including the taxpayers, will see the value of their investment decline in value (sic) by about 22 percent.

      No matter how much lipstick you now try to put on this pig, it is the classic exposition of the “dilution effect of stock sales” urban legend. You are saying, in so many words, without any ifs or buts, that because the assets and earnings, and problems and opportunities, of the firm stay the same, and equity increases by 22%, therefore the stock price must fall by 22%.

      Nothing in your article, not one sentence or phrase, betrays even the tiniest hint that you realize this is just an urban legend, that it is totally untrue for the reasons I spelled out.

      Saying “my story for The Nation was not intended to be a theoretical article” hardly justifies the peddling of this urban legend, especially when you now seem to be claiming you understand the underlying issues perfectly. It’s not really a matter of theory versus practice at all. Some things are right, and some things are just plain wrong. What you wrote is totally wrong. No amount of fast talking involving the word “theoretical” is going to change that.

      As far as I can tell, you are now claiming that you understand the underlying issue perfectly — which means you understand fully why that paragraph you wrote was totally wrong — but for some reason it was still perfectly okay to write it, because it wasn’t supposed to be a theoretical article.

      And let’s be clear about one thing. That paragraph is not a tangential, peripheral part of the article. It is very much your core argument for why “the Citi offering in particular was going to be dilutive”.

      At this point, you have a lot of egg on your face. If you choose not to wipe it off, and want to pretend that it isn’t there, be my guest.

      The basic thrust of your critique is that the offering wouldn’t necessarily be dilutive if Citi could find investors willing to pay a relatively high price for the new shares. The Nation story argued that they wouldn’t be able to find such investors, since there was no reason for investors to pay a relatively high price, and that the company’s existing shareholders, including taxpayers, would be diluted.

      The Nation story did nothing of the kind. It did not in any way, shape or form link your wealth dilution argument to the price that the new shares would be sold at. In fact, it didn’t talk at all about the price that the new shares would be sold at. That’s the part I’m really having trouble with now. That’s the part that has me muttering “Revisionist dishonesty! Dishonest revisionism!” to myself over and over again.

      If you did indeed understand the underlying issues perfectly, then you understood that whether the stock price would decline, and how much it would decline by, depends entirely on what price the new shares would be issued at. And yet there is not one single reference in your article to the offering price. What an amazing coincidence, huh?

      One last comment:

      I included a set of simple calculations is (sic) to assign an estimate on (sic) how bad the deal would prove, in a manner that readers (most of whom are not former finance professors) can relate to.

      I hope you’re going to come to be truly ashamed of that statement at some point.

      It doesn’t matter that the estimate is hopelessly wrong? (Because you cannot even begin to make any estimate without considering what price the shares will be sold at.) It doesn’t matter that there is no sense or logic to it, whatsoever? All that matters — since most of your readers are not former finance professors — is that it should be a simple calculation that readers can relate to (whatever the heck that means)? Maybe you should have stuck with saying the shares would decline by 4%, since two plus two is four? Heck, everyone can relate to that!

      That’s how much contempt you have for the intelligence of the readers of The Nation? (For the record, most of our readers are not former finance professors, either. And, yet, neither Matt nor I have ever found it necessary to substitute simple-minded untruths for what is actually true. But then we have not been financial reporters for several years. Nor can either of us claim to ever have been AlterNet‘s economics editor. And our work has certainly never appeared in The Nation, Mother Jones, The American Prospect and Salon.)

      I sincerely hope you can bring yourself to realize that you have only made matters worse for yourself, not better, through your two comments here. Much better to manfully admit you made an embarrassing mistake, learn from it, and move on.

    5. sarabeth says:

      In the interests of completeness, I may as well go ahead and respond to this too:

      My predictions proved pretty close to what actually came about, if you accept Thursday’s close as the relevant measuring point. I chose Thursday because it’s the first closing price after the market learned that the deal would in fact go through. It was not clear during the week of this stock sale that Citi was actually going to be able to complete the offering, so it was not clear what effect it would have on the stock. This was the largest single capital offering in corporate history, and there were many reports that the company was having trouble finding buyers. There was also the question of whether or not the Treasury would be dumping additional Citi shares into the market, something Treasury ultimately decided to postpone. There are, of course, many reasons why stocks can behave certain ways, but I’m hard-pressed to see what explanation other than the offering can account for Citi’s 18.9% decline over the course of a period in which the KBW Bank Index slipped just 4.3%.

      You seem to see it as something more than a happy coincidence that the 18.9% decline from the Friday, December 11 closing price to the Thursday, December 17 closing price comes pretty close to the 22% you predicted.

      I would like to make the following points to try and disabuse you of that notion:
      • Firstly, the whole point of my post was that the arguments you offered in support of your contention that Citigroup’s plan for financing the TARP repayment will hurt taxpayers were totally wrong, conceptually. You do not seem to be disputing this.
      • Secondly, when you predicted a decline of 22% in the stock price, there was no method, just madness. It was essentially just pulling a number out of a hat. Because no such prediction can be made without considering the offering price, and you did not consider it at all. Your 22% prediction was made out of whole cloth and thin air.
      • I don’t think I buy your statement: “It was not clear during the week of this stock sale that Citi was actually going to be able to complete the offering”. I think that by the morning of Wednesday December 16, there wasn’t much residual uncertainty about whether Citigroup would be able to complete the offering. All that was uncertain was how low an offering price they would end up setting, and whether the Treasury would go ahead with its $5 billion secondary offering or cancel it. By the argument you offered in support of your prediction, neither of these was relevant to the prediction. So I continue to have grave reservations over picking Thursday’s closing price as the relevant number for computing the price decline due to the new issue. But I really don’t think it matters a whole lot what day is actually picked, and what price decline it yields.
      • There could be many other reasons why Citigroup’s price fell over the four trading-day period you picked. As you yourself pointed out, bank stocks as a whole declined by 4.3% over those 4 days. If we make the simplistic assumption that on average Citigroup moves with the bank index, industry effects alone would explain almost one-fourth of the 18.9% drop (it’s 19.0% actually, since 18.99% would have to be rounded to 19.0%, but what’s such a minor act of sloppiness compared to the glaring conceptual errors in the article?). And there was also, of course, other bad news for Citigroup over the period, which contributed to the decline. For example, Bloomberg points out that “Citigroup’s Dec. 15 announcement that Abu Dhabi Investment Authority was trying to abort an accord to buy $7.5 billion of Citigroup stock” may also have hurt investors’ confidence in Citigroup. So it’s really foolhardy to imply that the entire 19% drop in Citigroup’s shares over these 4 days can be attributed to the new equity issue with any degree of confidence.
      • But even if Thursday is the right date to pick, and even if the entire 19% decline can be attributed to the new issue, so what? Are you now seriously trying to say, “See, I randomly picked 22%, and the stock price fell by 19%, which is pretty darn close, so I turned out to be right!” Right about what, Zach Carter? You made an entirely spurious argument, and came up with a totally random prediction that cannot be justified in any way at all, and so even if the actual decline comes close to the prediction, what does that validate? It clearly doesn’t validate your argument, and it clearly doesn’t validate your prediction. So please forgive me for utterly failing to see what you’re complimenting yourself for here when you go “My predictions proved pretty close to what actually came about”.

    6. Zach Carter says:

      Good grief, indeed. I believe the basic argument of The Nation article works whether one accepts or rejects your critique. Treasury was gloating over its gain for taxpayers, while it was allowing taxpayers to take a financial hit in the form of a dilutive offering. That the offering would be dilutive was predictable— the outrage was so transparent that even Dick Bove, the chief defender of Citi’s management in the analyst community, stood up and cried foul. Furthermore, Citi’s management was diluting taxpayers for their own personal enrichment, and this was not the first time Treasury made a poor call regarding the Citi bailout.

      That’s the purpose of the article, and all of it is true. Based on your comments so far, you seem to agree with all of it. The only issue on which we’ve differed is whether the use of the 22% figure is helpful or unhelpful. You make a pretty good case, I think, that it is not helpful, and I’m willing to concede the point. Given our much broader common ground on this issue, however, I see no cause to be shouting at one another in html.

    7. sarabeth says:

      Look, my only points were
      1) the argument you offered for why the TARP repayment plan would be dilutive (as spelled out in the paragraph I quoted in comment 4) makes no sense whatsoever conceptually
      2) Your computation that the stock price should fall by 22% makes no sense whatsoever conceptually

      Can you stop weaving and bobbing for a minute, and stop trying to tell me what I agree with, and just answer two simple questions:
      a) Are you disputing either of those points?
      b) Are you still trying to pretend that you understood all of this all along, but still somehow wrote what you did?

    8. sarabeth says:

      Since Zach Carter insists on presuming to speak for me, and ascribes to me views that I certainly do not hold, I better contradict him just for the record (lest anyone be tempted to construe my silence as assent).

      I have no idea how he convinced himself that it makes any sense to claim: “Based on your comments so far, you seem to agree with all of it.” I can only respond: “Bullshit!” (I guess I can also ask “Which comments exactly gave you this impression?”)

      Likewise, “Given our much broader common ground on this issue, however…” I can’t imagine what part of what I wrote, either in my post, or in the comments, could have persuaded him we have any common ground.

      This I have to reject utterly: “The only issue on which we’ve differed is whether the use of the 22% figure is helpful or unhelpful.”

      I have not called the 22% estimate unhelpful. I have called it “pure unadulterated hogwash”, I have called it “hopelessly wrong”, I have called it a “totally random prediction that cannot be justified in any way at all”. I have said “there is no sense or logic to it, whatsoever”. I have said “there was no method (to it), just madness.” I have said “It was essentially just pulling a number out of a hat.” I have said it “was made out of whole cloth and thin air”.

      And now Zach Carter comes along and thinks that he can bamboozle people into believing that the only issue with the 22% estimate is whether is helpful or unhelpful?

      That’s not just dishonest, it is stupid.

      And I don’t imagine that Zach Carter thought for a minute that by writing that he would somehow convince me it was true. So it could only be aimed at our readers. As such, it thoroughly insults the intelligence of our readers. (But don’t take too much offense at that, dear readers; remember that he also insulted the intelligence of the readers of The Nation. Maybe that’s his thing, that’s what he does.)

      As for whether we disagree on anything other than the 22% estimate, I guess I have really no way of knowing that until Zach Carter answers the simple questions I just asked above.

    9. Zach Carter says:

      Right, I am conceding both 1) and 2).

      I presented these calculations in an effort to simplify the discussion and move through the argument quickly. The piece is already a little clunky as is—going into offering prices would have weighed it down further, and, I worried, muddied things up for the reader (hence the words “helpful” vs. “unhelpful”). Citigroup wasn’t going to fetch a good offering price, so the point seemed moot. You’ve since persuaded me that it would have been better to spend more time on the technical financial issues, as what is presented is essentially a fallacy.

      What I was attempting to convey with the original article was the idea that this offering would be dilutive and inappropriate. What I have been attempting to defend in our discussion is the idea that this ultimate point holds true, regardless of the technical shortcomings of my argument’s presentation. I was of the impression you shared that view. I was not trying to put words into your mouth.

    10. sarabeth says:

      I asked you two questions. You answered a, but not b.

      For the record, I have not once spoken to the question of whether the offering would be dilutive and inappropriate. So I’m not sure how you picked up the impression that I shared that view.

    11. Zach Carter says:

      My last post, other than the first sentence was my response to question b). Somehow, I have the feeling this is not a productive discussion.

    12. matt says:

      The piece is already a little clunky as is—going into offering prices would have weighed it down further

      consider a new line of work. seriously.

    13. sarabeth says:

      I re-read comment 9, but it’s not very clear what you’re saying in response to question b.

      Just so that we understand each other: you are saying that you understood all along that both the argument you were offering for why the TARP repayment plan would be dilutive, and your computation that the stock price should fall by 22%, made no sense whatsoever conceptually?

    14. sarabeth says:

      I must confess that I am more than a little confused by this whole comment thread.

      I wrote a post which offered a very specific criticism of two central points in Zach Carter’s article. Zach Carter accepts the criticism as perfectly well-founded. Yet he came in here with long comments defending his article…against what exactly? Certainly nothing that I had criticized it for.

      And at the end of a long to-and-fro that he calls “shouting at one another in html”, it remains undisputed that he wrote something that was totally untrue. Maybe I’m just old-fashioned, but I hold these truths to be self-evident:
      1) Journalists shouldn’t write things that are totally untrue.
      2) If a journalist happens to write something that is totally untrue, he shouldn’t claim that he understood he was writing something totally untrue, but he did it anyway, because he has to give his readers simple things they can relate to, even if they are totally untrue.

      Personally, I find it hard to believe his claim that he understood exactly why what he was writing was totally untrue. If he understood that whether the stock price would decline, and how much it would decline by, depends entirely on the offering price, I simply don’t see how he could have written the entire story without one single reference to the offering price, or how he could have produced a calculation that he knew to be such a total joke (especially when there was really no need to produce a calculation at all).

      And I certainly don’t buy into the notion that the only two choices he had were to write those totally wrong things for the sake of simplicity, or to produce an article heavy with technical discussions that most of his readers wouldn’t understand. All he had to do was say that (a) the new issue would cause dilution, and (b) that dilution would happen because the offering price would have to be set significantly lower than the $3.95 closing price on Friday, December 14. It wouldn’t have been necessary to get into any more “technical financial issues” than that. A calculation wasn’t necessary at all, but if he wanted to include one, a simple calculation could easily have been done, just like I did, with an assumed offering price. A perfectly simple calculation that anyone can understand.