Troubled By Torture

Posted by on . 25 comments.

From the “With a Straight Face” department:

The United States may cut off funding for Iraq’s police because of its failure to punish people responsible for torture, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq said in an interview published on Saturday.

Comments

  1. jamie beth says:
    September 30, 2006 at 2:36 pm

    disgusting. repulsive. repugnant. ugh. i haven’t been commenting lately because that is basically my response to everything that has been going on lately.

  2. Bob says:
    October 1, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    It’s “disgusting. repulsive. repugnant.” that the US is trying to discourage torture?

    So.

    The left once again unintentionaly shows it’s true colours.

  3. jamie beth says:
    October 2, 2006 at 12:03 pm

    no, no, no. why do all the conservatives who come to this site have such poor logic skills?

    be assured, nothing i do is unintentional.

    bob – it’s the fact that anyone from the US government can say, with a straight face, that we’re tough on people responsible for torture. you understand that, right? you just get off on playing dumb, right?

  4. Bob says:
    October 2, 2006 at 12:50 pm

    Ah, so you’d rather have them just let the Iraqi police torture whomever they want, whenever they want?

    The fact that you’re “disgusted” by what you see as politicians acting like hypocrites (which they’re not in this case, but regardless) instead of being disgusted by the actions of those who wish to employ torture tells me all I need to know about your thought process. I could just picture you standing in front of a cop yelling “YOU’RE DISGUSTING!!!” while he’s trying to apprehend a murder suspect, based on your “logical” line of thought: since you just saw the cop jaywalk a minute ago, he’s a criminal and has no right to be arresting anyone. What a hypocrite, right?

    If you’d like, come by some time and I’ll be more than happy to demonstrate for you the difference between Iraqi torture, and American “torture”. One involves drills, electricity, hammers, pliers, saws, potato peelers, and wood chippers. The other involves lack of sleep and rock music. I’ll let you test out each method for a couple days, and then afterwards, if you survive the Iraqi methods, we can debate politics to your hearts content.

  5. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:03 pm

    Is this a heated fight rising, or will it actually develop into a civilized debate with facts instead of name calling and unproved (or unsourced) data? I notice that a lot of people can’t seem to debate and present facts kindly in this day of age. I think the political debates of mudslinging have influenced more than we thought….

    Bob…I would like to know how you know what the Iraqi’s torture methods consist of. It sounds like you have first hand knowledge of such torture tactics….

  6. jamie beth says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:04 pm

    our torture is better than their toture? got it. thanks for clearing that up.

  7. Bob says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:10 pm

    You’re welcome. Let me know if there’s anything else I can help you with.

  8. jamie beth says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    In The Middle – that’s a good point.

    I could link back to lots of posts of abu ghraib and state my beliefs that these were not actions of a couple rogue low-levels, however the content of the original post and my response are not about what’s happening, but how the US is framing it. Yes, we “punished” scape-goats that were “responsible” for torture, and somehow that allows us to sit in judgment of everyone else. We still committed the acts, far beyond sleep deprivation and rock music. To compare abu ghraib to jay walking would be laughable, if it weren’t so, so misguided and sad.

  9. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:13 pm

    I think I would like to be tortured by the French…I hear they make you eat their expired cheeses, but they give you some wine with it at least, and then apologize…

  10. Bob says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:19 pm

    “Bob…I would like to know how you know what the Iraqi’s torture methods consist of. It sounds like you have first hand knowledge of such torture tactics….”

    I haven’t personally been subject to it if that’s what you mean. I HAVE received training on it, including learning the application of different torture methods used around the world as well as the basics of interrogation, and have been put through a resistance-to-interrogation course. In other words, I’ve seen the methods employed in Iraq and elsewhere, and have volunteered to be “tortured” the same way the prisoners in Guantanamo are. So I speak with first hand knowledge when I say that the type of stress that prisoners are placed under in Gitmo and Abu Gharib doesn’t come close to a reasonable definition of torture. It’s certainly not pleasant, but it’s not torture. Especially when compared to the torture which we’re attempting to stop. That’s why I find Jamies response so ludicrous. It’s like saying that someone who occasionally gets in an arm wrestling match has no business telling others not to beat eachother to death. Then again, you see people attempting to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany on a regular basis, so I’m not surprised to see this sort of nonsense either. Saddened maybe, but certainly not surprised.

    “our torture is better than their toture? got it. thanks for clearing that up.”

    You’re welcome. Let me know if there’s anything else I can help you with.

  11. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:21 pm

    Exactly Jamie– but isn’t it sad that’s how the whole world actually works when it comes to politics? I try to think of one country that doesn’t lie or doesn’t do something silly… wait wait, what about Abu Dhabi? No no, they sent back Nermal in the box back to Garfield without poking some air-holes…

  12. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:28 pm

    Then again, you see people attempting to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany on a regular basis, so I’m not surprised to see this sort of nonsense either.

    I referenced in an earlier comment about how the US government involuntarily sterilzed women from 1929 to the 1970s without their consent (and sometimes knowledge), something that Nazi Germany actually picked up from the US.

    Putting torture aside, the US is actually becoming a fascist state in order to control every aspect of what we do, what we can’t do, etc. Take what the Education Dept. advisor said of education (under Reagan): “Education is not about

  13. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:31 pm

    Then again, you see people attempting to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany on a regular basis, so I’m not surprised to see this sort of nonsense either.

    I referenced in an earlier comment about how the US government involuntarily sterilzed women from 1929 to the 1970s without their consent (and sometimes knowledge), something that Nazi Germany actually picked up from the US.

    Putting torture aside, the US is actually becoming a fascist state in order to control every aspect of what we do, what we can’t do, etc. Take what the Education Dept. advisor said of education (under Reagan): “Education is not about reading, writing, etc…it’s about changing the thoughts, actions and feelings of students.”

    Don’t forget about the more recent Terror Bill–giving any president (not just Bush) complete authority to monitor your personal financial, medical, and every other aspect of your life without your consent or knowledge.

    But the US isn’t the only one…the Brit’s are much worse, now devising a point system for children: they monitor what they eat, their grades, their hobbies, etc., and the computer marks them with points. If they get enough bad points, the child is removed from their parents home (the bill is introduced to actually remove them from the homes, but the monitoring is factual)…

    Crazy world, eh?

  14. Bob says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:31 pm

    “Putting torture aside, the US is actually becoming a fascist state in order to control every aspect of what we do, what we can’t do, etc.”

    Sorry, I didn’t realize the crowd on this site was THAT far gone. Anyone who can make that sort of claim about a country which offers it’s citizens more rights and freedoms than any other on this planet….well, I don’t see any point in debating anything with someone like that. You’ve already been brainwashed past any hope of recovery. Good day sir.

  15. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:36 pm

    I should state that I don’t agree with the generalization that Nazi Germany is much like the US today–no, Bush is no Hitler, that I totally disagree with, and no, Nazi Germany and the US are not performing some awful genocide on people. I think when people compare, they either 1)compare it for the reaction of others or 2) maybe actually compare it to fascism and the recognition that the US is becoming fascist in the sense that the people have no rights and the police are no longer protecting and serving the people (they are serving the government to make money for it amongst other things)….

    No no, the US is not a genocidal nation, and Bush is not Hitler…

  16. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    You’ve already been brainwashed past any hope of recovery

    I didn’t realize that reading government quotes, bills, etc, in an extensive manner was brainwashing.

    Must …. tell … US … I am … happy ….

  17. Bob says:
    October 2, 2006 at 1:50 pm

    It’s not the reading that’s the problem, it’s the comprehension abilities and the conclusion. Two people can read the exact same literature about the Apollo moon landing, and come to two completely different conclusions. You’re the type who’d determine it to be a hoax, simply because it fits your world-view better. That, my friend, is brainwashing. I’m not talking about an intentional, systematic modification of your thought process by some large shadowy government organization – no, in modern societies that sort of brainwashing only occurs in the movies. What I’m talking about is the natural form of brainwashing which occurs whenever a group of individuals cuts themselves off from external opinions and stimuli, and proceed to create a sort of feedback loop which serves only to further alienate them from the rest of society. It’s the type of brainwashing most which most often manifests in the form of a cult, or organized religion in general. The belief that “the government is out to get us” has for all intents and purposes become a modern replacement for religion, and is just as harmfull if taken to extremes.

  18. jamie beth says:
    October 2, 2006 at 2:12 pm

    oy, you just took this to a whole new level.

    the fact is, and bob, i know you won’t believe this, but the govt is out to get me. the police are allowed to randomly search bags on the subway, today my mom got yelled at for taking a picture in the subway system (a perfectly legal act), votes are being lost and tampered with, the govt is listening to my phone calls — this is a problem. you may say we have more freedoms than most, i say that’s because bush has only been in office for about 6 years.

    my freedom is predicated on playing by their rules — and it’s fading fast.

  19. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 2:36 pm

    Bob is right about one thing: its how you comprehend things. Every try reading the Patriot Act? There is very little Patriot about it. I gave up after the first couple hundred pages and finding almost ZILCH that had to do with anti-terrorism.

    Remember, everything the government does is introduced in the form of safety and security. Reagan even said that the worst words the gov can say to you is “I am here to help you.”

    I am all-American, and I don’t believe in every insane conspiracy theory out there, and I love the country. But I choose not to live the US anymore, and not because of the government: because of people who want to use the Constitution against me. I have a son, and I don’t want someone in the grocery store calling the cops on me because I disciplined him in a way that the other person disagrees with. It’s none of his business if I spank him properly or not, or make him apologize to someone. Think it doesn’t happen? It does, and those are the people I am afraid more afraid of for my child. I don’t want him taken away because I spanked him, and I doubt you would, too. My best friend in HS had his little brother taken away from him when he was 10 (this about ten years ago) because the school nurse noticed bruises on his arm. No questions asked, just taken away because of one phone call. You know what those bruises were from? His terminal disease that he was recently diagnosed with…thank god social services gave the kid back…

  20. InTheMiddle says:
    October 2, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    I will re-iterate that I firmly believe that everything the government does–republican, democrat, whatever–is because of money. The US Gov’t is broke. Most people do not realize that the Federal Reserve is an oxy-moron–there is nothing Federal about it, our founding fathers were completely against it until they died and were unable to stop it, the IRS was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, the US dollar is NOT based on gold, nor does the US government own any gold (we gave it to the Federal Reserve as collateral to print our money), that Congress said it was ok for the FR NOT to make public the M5 (how much money is actually printed–the amount determines the actual value…the more printed, the less worth it is), that the police are the pimps for the government (you can now get a ticket for speeding and a seperate one for breaking the law..umm, isn’t that what speeding is? also, the BAC for DUIs are continually dropping to where if you have one beer, you can’t drive at all), that Saddam Hussein nearly helped the Euro topple the US dollar when he screwed us by converting his cash to the Euro in 2000-2003 (why I believe the US invaded Iraq because other countries under OPEC over there were going to do the same when they saw how much Sadaam made off the move), and that the US Govt is so broke yet so large that it would take at least another 10-15 years for it to collapse (in which case, the rest of the world would go into a recession–remember the 1920s recession: Europe went into a recession after the war and thus affected the US economy because no other country had money to buy our stuff)…. Also the FR has private shareholders which are unpublished….

  21. johnnny pabami says:
    November 5, 2007 at 5:09 am

    I’m tired of hearing people say we can not toture those who have taken up arms against America.I support any methods the government uses to continue to keep our country safe from those who wish to see us destroyed.

  22. matt says:
    November 5, 2007 at 9:31 am

    so you’re ok with other people torturing our soldiers after we’ve taken up arms against them?

  23. jamiebeth says:
    November 5, 2007 at 9:43 am

    apparently he is.

  24. jamiebeth says:
    November 5, 2007 at 9:44 am

    or she, apparently he or she is…

  25. sarabeth says:
    November 5, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    from where I’m sitting, johnnny pabami wishes to see our deepest values destroyed.

    I guess if we had a government that concurred with me — and by the grace of gods we soon shall — johnnny pabami would support the government’s right to torture him (just to teach him why most enlightened societies feel the need to condemn torture).