In Our Name, Yours And Mine

…Andrew Sullivan points out that when it comes to torturing and brutalizing these prisoners of The War On Terror, we take a back seat to no one. We practice as much casual, pointless brutality as any of the evil regimes from history that we consider ourselves, unquestionably, to be morally superior to…

When allegations of torture or abuse of detainees in the war on terror surface in the press, it is most often in the context of interrogation of suspected terrorists. And many well-meaning Americans find that allows them to avert their eyes, and not worry too much about what’s going on. Or, to be precise, about what’s being perpetrated in our name and with our tacit approval.

In a post from last Thursday, Andrew Sullivan points out that when it comes to torturing and brutalizing these prisoners of The War On Terror, we take a back seat to no one. We practice as much casual, pointless brutality as any of the evil regimes from history that we consider ourselves, unquestionably, to be morally superior to:

We also know that some prisoners have been tortured and abused, and many are regularly assaulted, or “IRFed”, for often minor infractions. If you don’t know much about the process of “IRFing,” read this. Eric Umansky has another excellent post on the subject. A lawyer for one of the prisoners met with his client shortly after such an “IRFing”:
“One of our clients was a mess. He’d been IRF’d a couple of days before and he was sickening to behold. One eye was swollen shut, the other a deep black and blue. Contusions all over his body, cuts on his head and legs. He couldn’t swallow and could barely talk. The “offense” meriting his forcible extraction was that he stepped over a line that they painted in his isolation cell.”
[…]
This is America in the era of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. You can either look the other way or deal with it.

Sullivan also presents this quote from Eric Umansky’s post. According to a lawyer who’s been to Guantanamo,

[T]he detainees who hanged themselves last week were in cells where “there’s nothing on the ceiling and the meshing is far too small to allow a sheet or anything to be tied to it. They would have had to slowly strangulate themselves by wrapping a sheet around the toilet bowl or something like that.”

Try wrapping your mind around that. How desperate does someone have to be, to be able to commit suicide like that, by slow self-strangulation? How can any form of punishment that drives a prisoner to take his own life like that not constitute cruel and unusual punishment? Or maybe it calls for stronger language than that hallowed phrase, designed as it was for a nobler day and age. How about inhumane and unconscionable?

Of the three Guantanamo prisoners who killed themselves, leave aside the two for whom it is not clear to us at this point whether they were actually terrorists or not. One of them has been certified by the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Pace military to be innocent. We, the United States of America, the cradle of democracy and grand champions of freedom and liberty and justice for all, the unquestionably all-round good guys in our own eyes, have so far forgotten ourselves that we deliberately and consciously and systematically, as a matter of policy, treat possibly innocent prisoners in such unspeakably obscene ways as to drive them to take their own lives in such a manner? And we do this, with no sense of irony whatsover, in the name of freedom and liberty and justice.

How have we managed to fall so far beneath even the cruelly oppressive regimes of history that we have always considered ourselves morally superior to? Is there, for example, a single recorded instance of even the worst excesses of the Soviet gulags driving someone to kill themselves in such a desperate manner? What exactly have we now managed to make ourselves the new grand world champions of?

And yet we have no national outrage over these suicides, no national sense of absolute horror and utter shame for the treatment that drove these men to these deaths.

How can we look in the mirror and tell ourselves we have not become as monstrous as these monsters we claim to fight in the war on terror? Especially when our Guantanamo generals and our Deputy Assistant Secretaries of State go before the press, and far from displaying any trace of collective institutional remorse, they make such chillingly contemptuous remarks about the suicides. (The English language doesn’t even have any standard phrases to do justice to their conduct. How woefully inadequate is “adding insult to injury”?) And how could these sorry excuses for Americans say what they said? Only because they were confident they would not invite our disapproval. What that unconscionably stupid general and that unconscionably stupid Deputy Assistant Secretary of State did through their statements was they stood up before the whole world, and they said: this is how monstrous I think the American people are at this point in this war. I can say this, and I will still have my job tomorrow.

If the Decider-in-Chief doesn’t wake up from his delusional moral torpor and decide to have their jobs right away, and to change our prisoner treatment policies, and if our opinion leaders in Congress and in the media and in public life generally don’t wake up and press the Decider-in-Chief to act on both counts, then it really doesn’t matter what happens from here on out in the war on terror. In every meaningful sense, the terrorists will have already won.

And George W. Bush better start facing up to the fact that when he goes into that long eternity in which we must all face up to who we really were and what we really did, neither rhetoric nor smirking nor Karl Rove will carry him to where he would dearly love to be. Unless he gets his act together pretty damn fast, he’s going to the other place. And as he steps across the portal, the welcome mat they put out just for him will surely say: The Buck Stops Here, Sucker.

Previously:
June 10: Guantanamo Suicides
June 12: Guantanamo, Contd.
June 12: Definitely NOT Acts Of Despair
June 12: Cruel Irony

Comments

  1. JimC says:

    We also know that some prisoners have been tortured and abused, and many are regularly assaulted, or “IRFed”, for often minor infractions. If you don’t know much about the process of “IRFing,” read this.

    How do they “know” this? Has anyone else read the Al Quaida handbook? They specifically train these people to self inflict wounds while they are prisoners to try to use the media attention. These people aren’t dumb, unlike the suckers who believe their lies and insist that it is in fact our government that are the bad guys not these poor innoccent Islamic Extremists…

  2. matt says:

    when will you get it that judging our actions on the actions of our enemies is always a losing proposition?

  3. sarabeth says:

    How do they “know” this?

    Ask Andrew Sullivan (who is a card carrying conservative, not a credulous namby-pamby bleeding heart liberal). I suspect he will say we know it from the non-redacted portions of official U.S. military documents the government was forced to disgorge. Or are you going to claim that the documents were tampered with by the al-Qaeda sympathizers in the U.S. government? As per instructions contained in the al-Qaeda handbook.

    They specifically train these people to self inflict wounds while they are prisoners to try to use the media attention.

    That’s the most brilliant circular logic devised by the armchair warriors in The War on Terror. Any allegations the prisoners make are by definition spurious. So we can do whatever we want. And there can never be any consequences. (Unless you believe in the long eternity. Which most of them don’t, even though they claim to be card carrying Christians. Plays well in Peoria, y’know.)

    You know what that circular logic leads to, logical genius? You end up boning yourself in the ass, to paraphrase Jon Stewart.

  4. cristian says:

    matt said:

    when will you get it [...] ?

    I don’t think he will, ever…

    I have to say I was wrong. He doesn’t have just a sight problem, his problem seem to be much deeper. And even if he stopped smoking that stuff, and then started over, easy, slowly, by taking again basic reading, reading comprehension and basic logic, it might not help at all. Sorry…

  5. JimC says:

    So we can do whatever we want.

    again, you are taking the word of a suspected terrorists/Islamofacists over our own guys, and it appears that’s ok with you, so I get it, you don’t like our guys so by default whatever our enemies say about them is truth and what our guys say is lies…crystal clear…

  6. JimC says:

    matt said:
    June 20th, 2006 at 7:57 am
    when will you get it that judging our actions on the actions of our enemies is always a losing proposition?

    See my previous reply…you are assuming the “suspects” are truthful and our guys are the liars…

  7. JimC says:

    cristian said:
    June 20th, 2006 at 8:24 am
    matt said:

    when will you get it […] ?

    I don’t think he will, ever…

    I have to say I was wrong. He doesn’t have just a sight problem, his problem seem to be much deeper. And even if he stopped smoking that stuff, and then started over, easy, slowly, by taking again basic reading, reading comprehension and basic logic, it might not help at all. Sorry…

    Do you seriously think that I will be offended by your assesment of my education or intelligence? So unless you think this makes you feel better, don’t waste your time…

  8. matt says:

    So unless you think this makes you feel better, don’t waste your time…

    is this an accurate assessment of the pitiful showing you make here daily? does it make you feel better? or are you just wasting everyone’s time?

  9. cristian says:

    JimC said:

    “…unless you think this makes you feel better…”

    No, it doesn’t. I said “Sorry…”. I meant sadness, and pity for you, for your aimless wandering and struggle.

  10. JimC says:

    is this an accurate assessment of the pitiful showing you make here daily? does it make you feel better? or are you just wasting everyone’s time?

    How many times do I have to say it, your blatantly spiteful assessments of my arguments does little to encourage me to respect your arguments as anything but “playground” material i.e. “I’m right and you’re stupid, nah…nah nah nah…nah”

  11. JimC says:

    No, it doesn’t. I said “Sorry…”. I meant sadness, and pity for you, for your aimless wandering and struggle.

    Thanks for your concern, but I’m doing quite fine thank you, now let me get back to my job as a software engineer because of my incredible stupidity, it takes me years to do what gradeschool kids can do in a few minutes…duuuh….

  12. Nick in Beantown says:

    now let me get back to my job as a software engineer

    Well, what’s keeping you from it? Go forth and code.

  13. matt says:

    How many times do I have to say it, your blatantly spiteful assessments of my arguments does little to encourage me to respect your arguments as anything but “playground” material i.e. “I’m right and you’re stupid, nah…nah nah nah…nah”

    imagine my concern. don’t pretend that my tone has anything to do with whether you respect my arguments. i’ve kicked your ass time and time again because you are such an administration bootlicker that you can’t even admit any real mistakes.

    and you didn’t answer my question. which makes about 30 unanswered questions. which is why no one respects anything you have to say at this point. you’ve become a joke.

    now let me get back to my job as a software engineer

    why do you feel the need to brag about a software job? there are plenty of readers here with important jobs, none of them feel the need for puffery. except for general fluffer, but he won’t be back.

  14. JimC says:

    imagine my concern. don’t pretend that my tone has anything to do with whether you respect my arguments. i’ve kicked your ass time and time again because you are such an administration bootlicker that you can’t even admit any real mistakes.

    If you say so, that’s fine, I’m not keeping score but it appears you have a scorecard somehwere, perhaps if we are playing a game, I should have been told, so that I to can keep my scorecard up to date but since you have yours handy and you say you are “kicning my ass” I have no choice but to accept that even though I suspect the conditions for winning are up for debate as well…

    why do you feel the need to brag about a software job? there are plenty of readers here with important jobs, none of them feel the need for puffery. except for general fluffer, but he won’t be back.

    Well, it wasn’t meant to brag but to show the contrast between critian’s assesment of my supposed mental deficiency and what I actually do daily…my job isn’t any better or worse than others but it does take skill and intelligence beyond your typical script kiddie and therefore by contrasting that with being a complete drooling moron was a way to cristian that he/she has no clue as to what my intelligence level is…I admint I did not graduate college with an English or writing degree but a BS in Computer Science is not coloring with crayons…

  15. jamie says:

    “. . .but a BS in Computer Science is not coloring with crayons…”

    nor is it any guarantee of critical thinking. i lament the demise of the liberal arts everyday.

    do you really think a supermarket bagger is necessarily less intelligent than you? that’s disgusting.

    and by now i know your response to this (i think, but i could be wrong) — you will say, “i never said a supermarket bagger was less intelligent than me (or, more properly, than I am.” but trust me, you implied it and it’s gross.

    people who hide behind degrees make me sick.

  16. JimC says:

    do you really think a supermarket bagger is necessarily less intelligent than you? that’s disgusting.

    Drama major are we? And yo’re right I never said that, I in fact was a grocery bagger, factory worker, and Guardsman, so that I could pay my way thru college.

    people who hide behind degrees make me sick.

    Who’s hiding? Its a fact of life, it takes hard work to obtain a degree (in most cases) and therefore to dismiss it as meaningless is in itself pathetic…but having a degree isn’t a sign of success but rather a mark of personal achievement.

    Success is how you applied what you learned in obtaining that degree.

    So when you are done being the martyr please let me know why you felt that I somehow implied *anything* about *any other job in the universe* when I clearly stated “my job isn’t any better or worse than others

  17. jamie says:

    no, your job might not be any better, but your degree is. whatever.

  18. Nick in Beantown says:

    . . .but a BS in Computer Science is not coloring with crayons…/blockquote>

    Crayons are boss, but sidewalk chalk wins every time.

  19. cristian says:

    JimC said:

    ..please let me know why you felt that I somehow implied *anything* about *any other job in the universe* when I clearly stated “my job isn’t any better or worse than others“

    Maybe where you also added “…but it does take skill and intelligence beyond your typical script kiddie…” ?

    And I have to admit, your BS is top notch.

  20. JimC says:

    jamie said:
    June 20th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
    no, your job might not be any better, but your degree is. whatever.

    What are you talking about??? My degree is better than what? Not having one? I assure you that my chances of getting the job Iwanted would have been more difficult without it, so what exactly are you implying here? I said getting a degree is a personal achievement not a measure of your intelligence.

    Maybe where you also added “…but it does take skill and intelligence beyond your typical script kiddie…” ?

    Do you even know what a script kiddie is?

    And I have to admit, your BS is top notch.

    Thanks, and so is yours

  21. sarabeth says:

    “So we can do whatever we want.”

    again, you are taking the word of a suspected terrorists/Islamofacists over our own guys, and it appears that’s ok with you, so I get it, you don’t like our guys so by default whatever our enemies say about them is truth and what our guys say is lies…crystal clear…

    Ah, the refreshing intellectual honesty of JimC!

    The comment he quoted from also said:

    Ask Andrew Sullivan (who is a card carrying conservative, not a credulous namby-pamby bleeding heart liberal). I suspect he will say we know it from the non-redacted portions of official U.S. military documents the government was forced to disgorge.

    But, as usual, JimC ignores whatever he finds inconvenient, and continues to trot out whatever lies he wants to put in your mouth.

    Try to wrap your genius mind around this, Mr. Computer Science B.S.: the evidence of torture does not come just from “taking the word of a suspected terrorists/Islamofacists over our own guys”, it comes from the words of our own guys in their official documents.

    And are you perhaps willing to admit and accept that many of those suspected terrorists/Islamofacists have been found by our own guys to be perfectly innocent? Am I allowed to believe our own guys there, or do you consider that part of what our own guys said as lies?

  22. JimC says:

    But, as usual, JimC ignores whatever he finds inconvenient, and continues to trot out whatever lies he wants to put in your mouth.

    Well, I saw an interview with one of the GITMO interrogators, he said that they do not torture or even lay a hand on them, so I guess its all about who you pick to believe…unlike you, I try to believe the that the majority of our guys are good and trying to protect us, however you seem to believe the majority of our guys are basically thugs and only a few “courageous” ones tell the truth (anyone that supports your campaign against Bush)…again, I don’t know why you insist on cheering for the people who would like to see America burn, but hey, its a free country isn’t it….

  23. matt says:

    I don’t know why you insist on cheering for the people who would like to see America burn

    this is why i’m leaning towards relenting to pressure from the ladies and banning your conflating, disingenuous, ignorant ass. i’m tired of having to respond to nonsense like this, and it’s not going to stand unchallenged, so something’s got to give.

  24. sarabeth says:

    Well, I saw an interview with one of the GITMO interrogators, he said that they do not torture or even lay a hand on them, so I guess its all about who you pick to believe

    Ain’t no arguing with beliefs. But Bush’s. Not yours.

    If you don’t mind very much, I won’t cherry-pick who or what to believe. I’ll just go with the preponderance of the evidence. You go right ahead and pick and choose and believe whatever the heck you want.

    And let me assure you, you don’t begin to have a clue what I believe.

    I don’t know why you insist on cheering for the people who would like to see America burn

    Feel free to substantiate that any time you want.

    but hey, its a free country isn’t it….

    Not so much any more, actually.

  25. JimC says:

    Feel free to substantiate that any time you want.

    Have you written anything positive about what our military has done versus how many posts have you written about how bad they are? Take a step back to take a look at your record, nothing I’ve read from you would suggest otherwise…

    And matt if you want t oban me then just do it, I’m sorry I trouble you with challenging your spin but hey, as usual when a liberal can’t take it, cuss the other guy out and ban him…fine with me…

  26. JimC says:

    If you don’t mind very much, I won’t cherry-pick who or what to believe. I’ll just go with the preponderance of the evidence. You go right ahead and pick and choose and believe whatever the heck you want.

    What??? Can you prove that torture and beatings are the widespread norm or are you taking a few claims and assuming it to be the norm? Please tell…

  27. sarabeth says:

    Have you written anything positive about what our military has done versus how many posts have you written about how bad they are? Take a step back to take a look at your record, nothing I’ve read from you would suggest otherwise…

    And that’s your justification for “I don’t know why you insist on cheering for the people who would like to see America burn”? Get real!

    (Matt: just do it! Pretty please?)

  28. sarabeth says:

    Can you prove that torture and beatings are the widespread norm or are you taking a few claims and assuming it to be the norm?

    You really don’t see that torture doesn’t have to be the widespread norm to be repugnant and objectionable?

    I have never said it was the widespread norm. (That’s just another one of the delusional fantasies you read into what I wrote).

    I have said we practice torture. The evidence comes from our own redacted documents and interrogation logs.

    We don’t have to be systematically practicing it on every Guantanamo detainee for it to be reprehensible and obscene. (We may very well be doing that, but whether we are or not is not the moral isssue. But you wouldn’t know a moral issue if the Jesus Christ himself tried to help you by whispering it into your ear.)

  29. sarabeth says:

    True confessions by the JimC in just the last 24 hours:

    1) He picks and chooses what he’s going to believe:

    Well, I saw an interview with one of the GITMO interrogators, he said that they do not torture or even lay a hand on them, so I guess its all about who you pick to believe

    2) Torture is morally repugnant to his Christian soul only if it is the widespread norm. (That must be the Word of God from the Bible, huh?)

    Stay tuned!

  30. JimC says:

    And that’s your justification for “I don’t know why you insist on cheering for the people who would like to see America burn”? Get real!

    Well, when one sees nothing but disdain and hate filled articles coming from you about our government and our military, what is one to think?

  31. JimC says:

    You really don’t see that torture doesn’t have to be the widespread norm to be repugnant and objectionable?

    I agree it is obscene, but your line of posting seems to suggest that it is the norm “I have said we practice torture.” everything you post seems to suggest that if it is happening and we find out about it only thru leaks then therefore it must be a broader issue that’s being hidden…

    And if it is not the case, then well I’m sorry…with all the negativity, I may have assumed more hat than you really have…

    But you wouldn’t know a moral issue if the Jesus Christ himself tried to help you by whispering it into your ear

    Nice try but since your whole basis for this statement is wrong, then it doesn’t apply…

  32. JimC says:

    sarabeth said:
    June 21st, 2006 at 6:23 am
    True confessions by the JimC in just the last 24 hours:

    1) He picks and chooses what he’s going to believe:

    Well, I saw an interview with one of the GITMO interrogators, he said that they do not torture or even lay a hand on them, so I guess its all about who you pick to believe

    2) Torture is morally repugnant to his Christian soul only if it is the widespread norm. (That must be the Word of God from the Bible, huh?)

    Are you mental?

  33. sarabeth says:

    Well, when one sees nothing but disdain and hate filled articles coming from you about our government and our military, what is one to think?

    Let me get this straight. When I criticize the U.S. military or the Bush administration, the logical conclusion according to the certified King of Logic is that I’m cheering for al-Qaeda and hoping America will burn?

    Since all you can do, by your own admission now, is distort and misrepresent, I don’t know why the heck I keep allowing myself to make the mistake of ever responding to you.

  34. JimC says:

    Let me get this straight. When I criticize the U.S. military or the Bush administration, the logical conclusion according to the certified King of Logic is that I’m cheering for al-Qaeda and hoping America will burn?

    One time no, two times, not really, but everytime? without ever noting anything positive, well then I start questioning who you call friend and foe…

  35. sarabeth says:

    I agree it is obscene, but your line of posting seems to suggest that it is the norm “I have said we practice torture.” everything you post seems to suggest that if it is happening and we find out about it only thru leaks then therefore it must be a broader issue that’s being hidden…

    As usual,your beef turns out to be not with what I said, ut with what it suggested to you. As usual, you’re only fighting with your own distortions.

  36. sarabeth says:

    Are you mental?

    The 1115 consensus seems to be that I’m a psychic, and you’re a psycho.

  37. sarabeth says:

    One time no, two times, not really, but everytime? without ever noting anything positive, well then I start questioning who you call friend and foe…

    My question was:

    Let me get this straight. When I criticize the U.S. military or the Bush administration, the logical conclusion according to the certified King of Logic is that I’m cheering for al-Qaeda and hoping America will burn?

    Your answer, presumably, is: Yes?

  38. JimC says:

    The 1115 consensus seems to be that I’m a psychic, and you’re a psycho.

    Can you give me the Mega Millions numbers for Friday? I need to pay for my therapy…twitch twitch…

  39. JimC says:

    Your answer, presumably, is: Yes?

    Ithink I spelled it out clearly, yes, based not on one article or two or even a few but a consistent attack against out miltiary and focus on how bad they are. You know your postings seem to focus on the same negatives that a number of articles on aljazeera’s website focus on, so that does that tell you…and yes, I look at aljazeera’s website…