If It Quacks Like A Duck.. God Did It

Faithful readers will note that while the topic of Intelligent Design has come up from time to time here, it hasn’t exactly been flagellated from a scientific or philosophical perspective. Truth be told, while it’s fun to crack jokes about flavoring religion with pasta and Hollywood icons, it’s easy to label ID as just another right-wing conspiracy to push the agenda and sneak religion into schools. Not so fast, Lefty. Let’s first justify our standpoint by defining and picking apart the three main talking points behind ID – irreducible complexity, specified complexity, and the anthropic principle:

1) Irreducible complexity

a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning (Michael Behe, Darwin’s Black Box, p. 39)

The human digestive system is often given as an example of such a system. One thing you will notice, though, is that the exact “parts” of the “system” are never labeled. Do we go by the accepted definition of “digestive system” or some other definition? Most people will agree that salivation and chewing are part of the digestive system, but if you lost your salivary glands or teeth you could still swallow liquids and even some solid foods. The rest of your digestive system would still work properly. Likewise, if you fall into a coma, you can be kept alive for years with a feeding tube – as we all know.

To further demonstrate:

We might say, for instance, that the function of a leg is to walk, and call legs walking systems. But what are the parts? If we divide a leg into three major parts, removal of any part results in loss of the function. Thus legs are IC. On the other hand, if we count each bone as a part then several parts, even a whole toe, may be removed and we still have a walking system.

ID proponents often give other examples of flagellate tails and such that are equally arbitrary in their definitions. But who could seriously suggest that the “human digestive system” didn’t have more “parts” than it does now? What if the current version has been reduced from something more complex? This possibility goes completely unaccounted for.

A true example of an irreducibly complex system has never been found, because the term itself is defined using faulty assumptions.

2) Specified complexity

since specified complex patterns can be found in organisms, [then] some form of guidance must have accounted for their origination. The specified complexity argument states that it is impossible for complex patterns to be developed through random processes. (source)

The same fallacious “it’s just impossible because we said so” argument. There’s a whole mess of mathematics by the main purveyor of this point, William Dembski, that essentially says “I’ve decided that these meaningless statistics apply here, so I scientifically conclude a designer must be responsible” and etc. It invents the idea that nothing in nature can become complex on its own, therefore God The Designer did it:

Let’s say you are walking in a field and find a TV set. You don’t necessarily know anything about who or what designed that TV set, but you can tell it is designed because, at some fundamental level, it exhibits specified complexity. But scientifically speaking, that’s all you can infer–that it was designed! (source) (emphasis added)

“It just has to be!” Sounds too much like a creationist argument. That’s because it is. Also, just because one uses “scientifically speaking” as a qualifier, doesn’t make it so. I have a better analogy:

Let’s say you are sitting in your cozy government office and find a hurricane approaching the Gulf Coast. You don’t necessarily know anything about who or what designed that hurricane, but you can tell they got it from Nordstrom’s because, at some fundamental level, it exhibits specified complexity. But scientifically speaking, that’s all you can infer–that it was designed by the fashion gods! You can quit now! You can go home!

Couldn’t resist.

3) Anthropic principle

An amazing discovery of scientists, in recent decades, is that many properties of the universe are “just right” for life. Most scientists are convinced that the fine-tuning constraints on a life-allowing universe are very tight, that small changes would make the existence of intelligent life impossible, and that the probability of a universe having these properties (fine tuned to be “just right for life”) is extremely low. (source)

Ah. Now it’s obvious who the Designer is.

It’s painfully clear that the Earth has properties that allow humans to exist, therefore humans exist. Anthropic principle is simply a backwards argument, going from effect to cause instead of vice versa: humans exist, therefore the Earth has properties that allow humans to exist. Wrong direction.

With all the geological processes and biotic respiration going on, the Designer apparently needs to “tune-up” the planet every once in a while. (Infer: Global Warming) That explains all the evidence in ice core samples of the atmosphere changing throughout history. Did all life just cease to exist during the periods when it was “out of tune”?

In all three points you might note the theme of “low probability of evolution” being used as a basis for Intelligent Design, employing fallacious arguments as “proof” in place of logical conclusions based on sound hypotheses. The probability of intelligent life coming about randomly really is small, but that was never under dispute. Even if it’s only a one in a million chance, there’s nothing to say we can’t be that one success or that we are the only one.

I leave you with the words of ID proponents attempting to describe their religion science fashion sense:

Intelligent design originates in a mind. The ‘intelligence’ in Intelligent Design is an awareness, or consciousness, that is purposeful, that conceives of
something it wants to see actualized and directs whatever activities are necessary to achieve that end. It doesn’t have to be smart. (source) (emphasis added)

On deck: ID and the “liberalizing” of education.

Comments

  1. JimC says:

    >1. How is ID science?

    Because it is the persuit of knowledge and even at the risk of rejection…

    >2. If you don’t attribute it all to god, then to what?

    I do attribute the origin to life to the Almighty God, however, the origin of life can be taught without regards to what force created it, based totally on the design itself. Which in fact evolutionst always argue that evolution isn’t to disprove God same that ID should not set out to prove God.

    To me the idea of ID should be focused on the intelligence behind the design of life not on the persuit of what that creator was…

  2. marc says:

    Again, nothing in your comment is even remotely close to what I was discussing. You completely sidestepped the topic. Didn’t this happen last time? You just stopped debating and started quoting wildly from any source that sounded even remotely intelligent. How did we suddenly shift from genetics to fossils? It’s just a distortion of the argument.

    I just want you to say it…..that it is done not from anything that is even remotely close to concrete. At every level it is a guess. It is a guess to determine the age of the bones, it is a guess to determine what the animal looked like, it is a guess….

    What is this? What part of the word THEORY do you not understand? Hasn’t it been maintained all along that the majority, if not all of science is an estimation? Where has evolution been taught as concrete fact? I still haven’t had that answered.

    I don’t think anyone has strayed from that point except you, who will perpetually, it seems, believe that everything revolves around 100% exact proof. All you are saying in all of your arguments is that everything is speculative, but that reasoning alone doesn’t disprove evolutionary theory nor make it unscientific. Nor would that approach work for any other branch of science.

    Face it, you’re up against a coherent body of explanatory statements supported by evidence. Speculation or not, you’re in the minority when you say that this is not science. The vast minority.

    If that’s all you’ve got then there’s nothing to debate.

  3. Mark M says:

    Because it is the persuit of knowledge and even at the risk of rejection…

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (cough) HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (wheeze) HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA … HA HA HA … HA … ahem.

    Yeah … and I’m starting for the Colts this weekend.

    ID/Creationism isn’t KNOWLEDGE … it’s faith. Period.

    I do attribute the origin to life to the Almighty God,

    Finally … you admitted it.

    however, the origin of life can be taught without regards to what force created it, based totally on the design itself.

    Bullshit.

    By stating, in a classroom meant to teach SCIENCE, that there is some all-powerful creator, is putting religion into the discussion.

    Again, that’s not knowledge or truth or fact. It’s faith.

    Thanks for playing.

  4. JimC says:

    >marc Says:

    January 10th, 2006 at 1:58 pm

    you missed the point. Yes science is made up of scpeculation and there are MANY Scientific facts. My point is that evolution doesn’t even meet sciences own standards, yet as in the quote I provided, it is passed off whether you want to admit it or not as fact. How many times have we heard on the news about some new finding. For example..

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html

    “But there is no absolute proof that this is what in fact happened with this small human. ”

    When this story was splashed on the nightly news, no where was it mentioned tha this was speculation nor was it sold as theory, it was passed off as fact.

    Furthermore, look at the following quote which shows how ridiculous these stories become. Look how only fragments have been found yet specualtions abound…

    “The newly found remains, dug up in 2004, consist of a jaw, as well as arm and other bones which the researchers believe were from at least nine individuals.


    A jaw bone reported last year and the latest one were probably from the same species, according to the scientists. Both share similar dental features and lacked chins.

    The new species, dubbed “Flores man,” is thought to be a descendent of Homo erectus, which had a large brain, was full-sized and spread from Africa to Asia about 2 million years ago.

    “Although the original skeleton is estimated to be 18,000 years old, a child’s radius (arm bone) was found in deposits estimated to be 12,000 years old,” Daniel Lieberman, of Harvard University in Massachusetts, said in a commentary in the journal.

    So from a jaw bone, they know that size of the brain? hmmmmm

    I know perhaps these hobbits were actually a crew of aliens that were marooned on earth after their spaceship crashed. About as plausible as these creatures being a “species” of humans.

  5. Nick in Beantown says:

    >When this story was splashed on the nightly news, no where was it mentioned tha this was speculation nor was it sold as theory, it was passed off as fact.

    For someone who is either not paying thorough attention or not a critical thinker (or watching FoxNews), this might be the case. However, whenever I see a report like this verbs like “believes” and “thinks” as in:

    “SciencePerson-X believes that this species belongs between A and B on the evolotionary path”

    The statement you made, here, sounds a lot like the alarmist bullshit you’d hear from the pulpit.

  6. JimC says:

    Bullshit.

    By stating, in a classroom meant to teach SCIENCE, that there is some all-powerful creator, is putting religion into the discussion.

    Again, that’s not knowledge or truth or fact. It’s faith.

    Thanks for playing.

    You can teach the design of a computer chip without regards to the manufacturer, same with ID. You study how the design of life is not based on random mutations and chance but rather was intelligently designed with a purpose. Who or what that purpose is, can be irrelevant in the study.

    Look, I really don’t care to have ID taught in school either, I simply object to teaching evolution and even the passive acceptence of evolution as fact in the media and in text books.

    Do you honestly believe that in schools, the science teacher stresses the “theoretical” aspect of evolution clearly? No, it wasn’t in my HS nor at college. It was just assumed to be fact. Mainly because the theoretical is rarely even touched on, but by saying things like humans have ancestors in common with modern apes without qualifying the theory implies its factual standing with the student or the observer.

  7. Nick in Beantown says:

    >The new species, dubbed “Flores man,” is thought to be a descendent of Homo erectus, which had a large brain, was full-sized and spread from Africa to Asia about 2 million years ago.

    …”is thought to be”…it sounds like a theory, an idea, a hypothesis. Were it indisputeable, “is” would be sufficient, dontchathink?

  8. Nick in Beantown says:

    >So from a jaw bone, they know that size of the brain? hmmmmm

    From the earlier quote in the article: The new species, dubbed “Flores man,” is thought to be a descendent of Homo erectus, which had a large brain, was full-sized and spread from Africa to Asia about 2 million years ago.

    Homo erectus was not the new species, homo.

  9. JimC says:

    I was not talking about this article, I was talking about the news reports at the time did not give any indication oftheory….

    forget it…have fun, monkey boy, I don’t care anymore….

  10. freedom of teach says:

    Dear JimC and all the other Bible thumpers who claim to have taken Biology but choose only to remember part of what they learned:

    One of the main flaws in your argument for IC is that cels could not survive without the function of a singel subcellular organelle. What you have chosen to omit is that there’s an entire KINGDOM of organisms that have NO ORGANELLES AT ALL: Prokaryota. They do OK as far as I can tell. If they didn’t, you wouldn’t be able to digest your food soo well because billions of them live in your digestive tract.

    Also, early Earth was a pretty shitty place full of CO2, CH4, H2S and a whole bunch of other noxious gases in the atmosphere, but NO O2 AT ALL. Some of the first organisms that did evolve (after biological molecules like amino acids etc formed as has been shown by Miller and Urey and replicated by countless othe biologists) were CHEMOsynthetic. (There were of course heterotrophs before them that simply munched on amino acids and proteins that were floating around). They used compounds containing Sulfur to build high energy molecules that they could break down to use the energy. It wasn’t until MUCH later that any photosynthetic organisms showed up and they weren’t leaafy plants as we know them today. Those photosynthetic guys had to crank out O2 for a few million or billion years before anything that needed to use O2 for cellular respiration had a chance. Plants (photosynthetic organisms) don’t “need” animals to live. I have no idea why anyone would think that. Sorry…go back to class and try to learn this stuff before you try to argue about the science.

    Oh and Biology has never claimed that humans evolved from apes/monkeys. Humans and all other primates share a common ancestor: a population(s) of this ancestor split into 2 groups due to an environmental change (one criterion for natural selection). One group was better adapted to live on the ground and one group was better adapted for living an arboreal life. Guess which group eventually led to modern humans and which became the apes monkey man? Learn it before you use half-truths and MISCONCEPTIONS to try to make a point.

  11. marc says:

    JimC says:

    My point is that evolution doesn’t even meet sciences own standards, yet as in the quote I provided, it is passed off whether you want to admit it or not as fact

    Don’t lecture me on passing off your points. Especially after you completely avoided further discussion of speciation when I provided sound reasoning that it is in fact a quite valid, logical scientific theory. I know what your points are (you’ve restated them more than enough times) and I’ve been responding to them all along, just like everyone else.

    You can teach the design of a computer chip without regards to the manufacturer, same with ID. You study how the design of life is not based on random mutations and chance but rather was intelligently designed with a purpose. Who or what that purpose is, can be irrelevant in the study.

    Whether the designer and its purpose are irrelevant in the study or not, if you are teaching that something was intelligently designed you are saying that it is not a product of unguided natural processes. You are saying that someone or something is fine-tuning the mechanisms that make life possible. This is the equivalent of saying that a God is responsible.

    Do you honestly believe that in schools, the science teacher stresses the “theoretical” aspect of evolution clearly? No, it wasn’t in my HS nor at college. It was just assumed to be fact.

    My experience, and I suspect the experience of more than a few other people here, was very different, as I stated before. Maybe you are right, but what evidence is there that any certain percentage of schools still teach evolution this way? If it is such a problem why hasn’t a study been done? I suggest you ask your school board and/or science teachers to see what they teach and how.

  12. Mark M says:

    You can teach the design of a computer chip without regards to the manufacturer, same with ID. You study how the design of life is not based on random mutations and chance but rather was intelligently designed with a purpose. Who or what that purpose is, can be irrelevant in the study.

    No it can’t.

    Do you honestly think some kid isn’t going to ask who/what the “designer” is? Then what?

    I’m not sure what color the sky is in the world you live in, but it sure as hell ain’t the same as the one the rest of us inhabit.

    And your “monkey man” crack just shows that you, just as other Bible thumpers, find it insulting that we have decended from some other primitive species. It’s that kind of arrogance that has led to genocide (seeing some other culture as “primitive”), the wholesale destruction of habitats, and the general fucked up mess we now see all over the world.

    Or is that all part of your designer’s plan? If so, your designer sucks ass.

  13. JimC says:

    My experience, and I suspect the experience of more than a few other people here, was very different, as I stated before. Maybe you are right, but what evidence is there that any certain percentage of schools still teach evolution this way? If it is such a problem why hasn’t a study been done? I suggest you ask your school board and/or science teachers to see what they teach and how.

    You bet that I will be doing this, absolutely. Fortunately, I live in a nice little RED county in a RED state….

  14. JimC says:

    Do you honestly think some kid isn’t going to ask who/what the “designer” is? Then what?

    True, and on the flip side, what if a child challeneges the teacher and asks for the alternatives to evolution or even refutes the teacher with creation theory, can the teacher then hold a discussion on ID? Probably not because of the one sided view that has been legislated by the courts onto our schools…

    Yeah, the monkey man was a shot, if you think you have descended from a common ancestor with apes, have fun with that. But you are wrong to assume this makes me feel supior to other races, or are you racist somehow to think other races are inferior? I believe all men were created equal…wait what’s that from? Oh nevermind that historical document will probably get banned from schools as well…

  15. matt says:

    >Probably not because of the one sided view that has been legislated by the courts onto our schools…

    still pissed off that your faith can’t be sanctioned by the government. why do some religious people feel the burning need to have their views officially validated? isn’t it enough that you accept it uncritically?

  16. JimC says:

    still pissed off that your faith can’t be sanctioned by the government. why do some religious people feel the burning need to have their views officially validated? isn’t it enough that you accept it uncritically?

    I don’t want my religion sanctioned by the government, just not discriminated against or forcably removed. Plus, if a student were to raise the question in class, the teacher isn’t allowed to discuss it, why?

  17. matt says:

    >I don’t want my religion sanctioned by the government

    i think we both know that’s bullshit.

    >just not discriminated against or forcably removed

    so does that go for islam as well?

    >Plus, if a student were to raise the question in class, the teacher isn’t allowed to discuss it, why?

    because that’s for his preacher

  18. Mark M says:

    True, and on the flip side, what if a child challeneges the teacher and asks for the alternatives to evolution or even refutes the teacher with creation theory, can the teacher then hold a discussion on ID?

    The teacher should refer them to a mythology class, which is where the discussion belongs.

    Probably not because of the one sided view that has been legislated by the courts onto our schools…

    Actually, there’s this document called the “Constitution” that states there is a separation of church and state. Thus, if the school isn’t private, the only I would say they could discuss a religious issue like ID is to have a religion class (which I think would be fine). The key is to make sure they present ALL religions when having it.

    Yeah, the monkey man was a shot, if you think you have descended from a common ancestor with apes, have fun with that. But you are wrong to assume this makes me feel supior to other races, or are you racist somehow to think other races are inferior?

    I’m not the one going around acting insulted any time someone suggests that humans were descended by a more primitive form. Just stating that it’s attitudes like that have led to racism.

    If you don’t want to be associated with stuff like that, then don’t take the same arrogant, moral high ground.

    I believe all men were created equal…wait what’s that from? Oh nevermind that historical document will probably get banned from schools as well…

  19. Mark M says:

    Okay … the least part of my post was cut off.

    Jim–We know damned well that the only men you consider equal are:

    1. Men.
    2. Christian men.

    Your views on abortion, evolution, Bush, et al prove it.

  20. JimC says:

    matt Says:

    January 11th, 2006 at 7:52 am
    >I don’t want my religion sanctioned by the government
    i think we both know that’s bullshit.

    Whatever…

    >just not discriminated against or forcably removed

    so does that go for islam as well?

    Yes.

    >Plus, if a student were to raise the question in class, the teacher isn’t allowed to discuss it, why?

    because that’s for his preacher

    So you are in favor of censorship, at least that’s been cleared up.

    Mark M Says:
    The teacher should refer them to a mythology class, which is where the discussion belongs.

    I see you also are not in favor of free speach and think censorship is good…

    January 11th, 2006 at 7:53 am

    Actually, there’s this document called the “Constitution” that states there is a separation of church and state

    Oh really, please find it for me, the exact text that says there will be a separation of church and state.

    If you don’t want to be associated with stuff like that, then don’t take the same arrogant, moral high ground.

    I never linked race to monkeys, you did…

    Jim–We know damned well that the only men you consider equal are:

    1. Men.
    2. Christian men.

    Your views on abortion, evolution, Bush, et al prove it.

    Are you completely deranged? I mean seriously, do truly think yourself an intellectual? How do you know anything about what I think other than your prejudices against Christians. I never once said anything about other people being less than me…

  21. JimC says:

    Oops

    January 11th, 2006 at 7:53 am

    Actually, there’s this document called the “Constitution” that states there is a separation of church and state

    Oh really, please find it for me, the exact text that says there will be a separation of church and state.

  22. screwtape says:

    >if you think you have descended from a common ancestor with apes

    some of us, cough*JimcC*cough, are more closely related than others…

  23. screwtape says:

    >Oh really, please find it for me, the exact text that says there will be a separation of church and state.

    Does that mean you think it is a good idea to combine the two? And if you do, would you feel the same way if it was not your religion that was the official religion of the state?

  24. JimC says:

    screwtape Says:

    January 11th, 2006 at 9:42 am
    >Oh really, please find it for me, the exact text that says there will be a separation of church and state.

    Does that mean you think it is a good idea to combine the two? And if you do, would you feel the same way if it was not your religion that was the official religion of the state?

    No, I mean I get hammered on nitpicking my statements, so here’s my chance to hit back….

    No, I think the Constitution is clear that the gorvernment will not be run by any religious establishment, but that’s all it means. It does not mean all things religious is banned from government or public arenas. It simply means that no one religion shall be the official or unofficial religion of the country. It is really only recently has ANY reference to a religion been demonized to condone or support one religion. The constitution never states that religion is banned from government or public areas.

    Unfortunately, some misguided people take that mentioning ANY is an endorsement of that one and therefore cannot happen.

  25. marc says:

    Unfortunately, some misguided people take that mentioning ANY is an endorsement of that one and therefore cannot happen.

    Consider that a little more carefully. You won’t mind if they teach creation in an Islamic or Jewish context as an alternative to evolution? Or the Scientological view:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

    I could be a bit presumptuous on this, but it seems to me as though allowing the influences of alternate religions into the classroom would be devastating for more than a few people.

  26. Mark M says:

    I see you also are not in favor of free speach and think censorship is good…

    No offense, but you’re a fucking idiot.

    I never linked race to monkeys, you did…

    Yep … you’re a fucking idiot. My point is pretty clear and only an idiot could miss it.

    Are you completely deranged? I mean seriously, do truly think yourself an intellectual? How do you know anything about what I think other than your prejudices against Christians. I never once said anything about other people being less than me…

    You don’t have to — the arrogance you have toward the thought of us evolving from another, more primitive form prove that you do.

    And I love the “prejudice against Christians” comment. You have been following James Dobson’s playbook perfectly.

  27. screwtape says:

    >I think the Constitution is clear that the gorvernment will not be run by any religious establishment,

    >It simply means that no one religion shall be the official or unofficial religion of the country.

    Okay, so far, so good. There may be hope for you. Take that last statement to it’s logical conclusion.

    Baby steps now…

  28. screwtape says:

    attention JIM:

    you do not have to be a creationist to be a churchy. here is how. the author is s big time churchy, but not a creationist. he did not completely check his brain at the door, like that whacko richard. enjoy.

  29. attention JIM:

    you do not have to be a creationist to be a churchy. here is how. the author is s big time churchy, but not a creationist. he did not completely check his brain at the door, like that whacko richard. enjoy.

    I’ll save a little time for everyone: Jim’s not so much pro-creation as he is anti-theory. He doesn’t want evolution or relativity taught in schools.

  30. JimC says:

    Mark M Says:

    January 11th, 2006 at 11:02 am
    I see you also are not in favor of free speach and think censorship is good…

    No offense, but you’re a fucking idiot.

    I never linked race to monkeys, you did…

    Yep … you’re a fucking idiot. My point is pretty clear and only an idiot could miss it.

    Are you completely deranged? I mean seriously, do truly think yourself an intellectual? How do you know anything about what I think other than your prejudices against Christians. I never once said anything about other people being less than me…

    You don’t have to — the arrogance you have toward the thought of us evolving from another, more primitive form prove that you do.

    And I love the “prejudice against Christians” comment. You have been following James Dobson’s playbook perfectly.

    I missed this gem. Thanks screwtape for bringing this thread back to the top.

    Mark M, your way with words ought to make you proud. I know I have more respect for you when you use such language and your point comes across much clearer and more mature as well….of course I’m not serious…

    Now back to screwtape, the idea of a Bbible believer rejecting creation is well, foolishness. Can one reject part of the Bible and still believe it to be the Word of God? I guess you can fool yourself into believing that but that falls under living for this world and conforming to it rather than relying upon the Word of God. So, I feel sorry for people who feel pressured by secular society to give up some of the promises of God in order to “fit” in to this world.

  31. JimC says:

    I’ll save a little time for everyone: Jim’s not so much pro-creation as he is anti-theory. He doesn’t want evolution or relativity taught in schools.

    Liar.

  32. screwtape says:

    the idea of a Bbible believer rejecting creation is well, foolishness.

    did you even read the link?

  33. Can one reject part of the Bible and still believe it to be the Word of God? I guess you can fool yourself into believing that but that falls under living for this world and conforming to it rather than relying upon the Word of God. So, I feel sorry for people who feel pressured by secular society to give up some of the promises of God in order to “fit” in to this world.

    Are you saying you accept every part of the Bible? Does that mean you follow all of the Levitical Laws?

  34. JimC says:

    >did you even read the link?

    Yes, hence being infunced and pressured to reject the Word of God and fit in with this world. His idea that there are mutplie creation stories is a personal interpretation of scripture. The passages in Genesis 2 in which he claims that God created man first then the animals is him misreading the verse, here is a better explaination than I can give so I will direct you here.

  35. sarabeth says:

    Just a brief interlude; enjoy it.

    JimC will be back in a minute, speaking in tongues, as always.

  36. JimC says:

    >Are you saying you accept every part of the Bible? Does that mean you follow all of the Levitical Laws?

    No, I’m not under the Law, I’m under grace, which is that Christ fullfilled the Law completely, does this mean I can break the Ten Commandments? No, if I love the Lord. I should do what is pleasing to th Lord. Being saved under the Blood of Christ does not give us freedom to party it up. The Levitical Laws were directed towards the Jews on how they should worship God and be different from other nations. However, Christians are not bound to the OT laws that were given unto the Jews. But since the law defines what sin is, being a Christian means striving to give up sin. This means striving to do that which is pleasing the Lord…So you might come back and say “So I think gays are ok?” Sure Gay Christians are ok, they are saved sinner like I am a saved sinner. However, As I deal with sin in my life, they to should deal with it and cast it out, even though the penalty has been paid…

  37. So I’m allowed to spill my seed?

  38. screwtape says:

    I should do what is pleasing to th Lord

    then you should probably burn a sacrificial animal. the bible frequently speaks of that being a “soothing odor” to yhwh and pleasing to him.

    here is a better explaination than I can give so I will direct you here.

    This explanation is simplistic and rudimentary at best. At worst, it is nothing more than a denial that ignores history, archaeology and theology. And, it ignores the account in psalms.

    I do not want to be critical of your particlular brand of jesusism (at least, no more critical than I am of any other brand), but it seems overly simplistic and juvenile. You take everything literally and at face value. The difference between you and the savages in Afghanistan is the name of your savior and a little technology. If you wore a beard and tended goats, you would be indistinguishible from them.

  39. JimC says:

    >then you should probably burn a sacrificial animal. the bible frequently speaks of that being a “soothing odor” to yhwh and pleasing to him.

    No, Jesus was the sacrifice once and for all…and was pleasing to the Lord…

    >If you wore a beard and tended goats, you would be indistinguishible from them.

    Maybe to your eyes…but I’m ok with that.

  40. JimC says:

    Matthew Tobey Says:

    February 10th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
    So I’m allowed to spill my seed?

    It almost hurts to ask, but are you a Christian? If so, then technically, yes, as I’ve said, the Law has been fullfilled in Christ, if no, then your sin is just as sinful as anything else in this world.

    Some Christians actually beleive once saved under grace, they can do whatever they want, which is a wreckless faith as it does not serve to become *more like Christ*. Being under grace technically frees us from the death penalty of sin but not the spiritual penalty of that sin. Much of the Levitical Laws are directed *only* to Jews not the gentiles. Howver, the Gentiles can use those as a guide to what God desires. Some of those laws were for worshipping God in the OT, but in the NT we have new commandments from Christ as He fullfilled the OT Law.

  41. screwtape says:

    So I’m allowed to spill my seed?

    Not here you’re not!

  42. It almost hurts to ask, but are you a Christian?

    I’m a catechism dropout. Good thing too, on account of my priest was later transferred for fucking alterboys.

    So, the bottom line here is, as long as I don’t get saved, I’m going to hell no matter what I do. Seed, prepare to be spilled!

  43. marc says:

    I’m glad I remembered my raincoat today.

  44. JimC says:

    >So, the bottom line here is, as long as I don’t get saved, I’m going to hell no matter what I do. Seed, prepare to be spilled!

    Well, putting it lightly, yes, but you don’t have to go to hell, its your choice…

  45. sarabeth says:

    Christianity and Islam are both country club religions, aren’t they? Only members will be admitted to heaven.

    Image the rude shock when you die if you find that heaven does not have reciprocal arrangements with the country club of your choice.

    Much better to hedge your bets with an Eastern religion (Hinduism or Budhism would do very nicely, I’m sure) which believes that all religions are equally valid roads to God. At least those guys will never have to go “Oh shit” no matter who the bouncers at the gate of heaven turn out to be.

  46. Well, putting it lightly, yes, but you don’t have to go to hell, its your choice…

    I said, “as long as I don’t get saved.” If I’m not saved, I no longer have a choice in the matter.

    I’m hellbound, Jim. No way around it.

  47. At least those guys will never have to go “Oh shit” no matter who the bouncers at the gate of heaven turn out to be.

    Unless the Muslims or Christians or Jews or Scientologists are right.

  48. John Aliff says:

    Science is drowning in a sea of specified ignorance thanks to the neocons!